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Thursday, November 12, 2009
What All the Fuss Was About
Laura, aka, The Thinking Housewife and I had a lengthy email discussion about our differing views on interracial marriage and transracial adoption. I hope and pray that even though we still disagree, we have both come away more enlightened. With my permission, she has published our exchange, in its entirety, over on her blog. You can read it here.
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41 graceful responses:
Hmmmm...I'm with you on this one Terry. I believe God revels in diversity, but have no problem with trans-racial adoption or intermarriage. I realize that there are conflicts and issues that arise, but they are hardly insurmountable. This is not 1809 or 1909.
Marriage wise - How would one decide on a people group? How large or small? Wouldn't mutations arise if it were too small? I'm white and married a Latino. We had problems, but none of them related to race. B/c the degree of color seems to make more of a difference, I suspect the issue is greater the further apart the cultures are, but still I see no biblical wrong. Just greater challenges. God tells us to be equally yoked. As in faith. But as for Jew and Gentile, slave or free...there is no such distinction. The Jews were to not marry the uncircumcised, but they could marry foreign converts.
As for international adoption, surely my Anglo household would beat a trash dump, 100 babies to one worker institution, or the streets any day...however hard the identity issue for the kid. I figure trans-racial is the same, though I don't know if the institutional settings are as dire. I haven't been too impressed with CPS.
Sometimes I get to the point where I think certain arguments aren't even worth having anymore. No matter the arguments provided, the idea that interracial marriage or procreation (or therefor adoption) is "wrong" or "unbiblical" is simply bad logic. If God had not intended for people of different races and ethnicities to intermarry, he would not have given us the ability to procreate and reproduce with one another.
And the logic further breaks down when you consider the questions of what are interracial people supposed to do, moving forward, even if they did believe the union that produced them was sinful? Now they are trapped forever in the inability to marry or have children themselves? So then we're faced with a notion that everyone on earth, to be morally just, must do a detailed DNA analysis to see if they are a product of mixed races, and if they are, then they are to, what, not reproduce? Or find a person who had the exact same ethnic subdivisions in their genealogy?
The very notion is illogical scientifically unsound, without getting into the moral implications.
Wow, I read all the stuff and don't know what to say. I, like Terry, believe that there is no such thing as race. The Bible does not support the idea of race (Caucasian, Negro, Oriental, whatever).
The Bible says in Acts 17 that we come from ONE BLOOD. We have one common ancestor, Adam. After the Tower of Babel, God confused the languages -- it says no such thing that races of people were then created.
In Revelation, standing before the throne are are people from every people, nation, tongue and tribe. Nothing is said about race.
And, like another commenter said, when people of different "races" marry each other, their offspring are able to reproduce, they are not sterile like the offspring between, say, a tiger and a lion, or a horse and a donkey. So, God doesn't disapprove when people of different "races" marry each other.
I think any time a child is given a home, it is a good thing. If the adoptive parents benefit, too (by now having a child), that is ok.
We can still honor our ancestors (mother and father) by respecting their country of origin, and at the same time marrying somebody of a different nationality and having children of mixed nationality.
I felt sorry for that "Amerasian" boy mentioned in the article who committed suicide. But his distress at his American father not accepting him may have been only one reason he did such a thing. He may have had other problems. Most "mixed race" people do not kill themselves.
And, like somebody else said, this is 2009, not 1809. I don't think anybody gets excited much over blacks/asians/whites marrying each other, or over seeing their offspring.
Hawaii, I am told, used to have terrible prejudice problems, but I noticed when I went there 4 years ago, that everybody seemed to be of "mixed race" -- everybody eventually married everybody else, resulting in a new blend. Hallelujah.
I thought your discussion was very classy, on both parts. Bravo for civil discussion!
But I do agree with others here that there's truly no such thing as "race". Aren't we all genetically traceable back to Noah?
And besides, what "race" do you call someone of mixed ethnic background? Or perhaps we shouldn't get married at all unless we are of a single pure ethnic heritage, and able to prove it?? LOL!
Lisa
Sometimes I think civility is overrated.
Wait, did I type that?
;)
Oh terry I am so sorry you have to have to put up with crap sometimes.
You are so graceful
I wrote this comment to your previous post, but if you don't mind I am moving it here... it was written after visiting the linked site, reading some of her posts and your dialog, so it really fits better here. Feel free to delete it if you'd rather I didn't cut and paste it here:)
Terry dear,while you are so gracious as to apologize and refrain from calling The Thinking Housewife a racist, I am tempted to think that a very apt descriptor... evidently I am a much less gracious person that you;) Many folks who do not think they are racist, are racist indeed. I am reminded of the recently infamous Justice of the Peace (from Georgia, I think) who refused to marry an interracial couple. He insisted that he was in no way racist... it's all so sad really.
I am sure The Thinking Housewife is very earnest and well meaning individual, and I'll allow she made a few merit-able points in her discussion of interracial adoption. Anyone who adopts across racial lines should be prepared to put forth significant effort to connect the child with their own ethnicity and culture of origin. I have no problem with that assertion... in fact my opinion has always been that the family that adopts transracially becomes interracial- all members should consider themselves interracial, at the very least culturally so. But to place a child's cultural heritage above their need for a loving home, or even their very survival in some instances is patently absurd. We are all people first. SOmeone above (perhaps Mrs. Henderson?) mentioned the writings of Ken Ham on race, and I enthusiastically second that recommendation.
And my primary model as an adoptive parent is God the Father Himself. We all.. all of us believers.. have been adopted into His family. And if bringing a pathetic sinner such as myself into the Holy family of God, doesn't qualify as a cross-cultural adoption, well then I don't know what does!
I am with you on this one Terry and completely agree with what Persuaded said as well.
As a mixed race adult myself , this pulled some strings in my heart and hurt me to think that there are people whom believe this way. My children are definitely mixed race with Italian , Irish and Hispanic and I am not a white looking Italian either. I am quite darker than my husband and children and have been exposed to comments about being their nanny instead of their mother. But I firmly believe that we must deal with people where they are in their walk with God, not where they should be. I believe this may very well be one of those situations.
And btw, I never even thought that you were calling her a racist, simply that you all disagreed biblically.
Good, civil discussion.
She might want to consider that it is opinions like hers that would contribute to issues she feels that mixed race families face.
I've had a few interesting comments from people, but nothing that would make me in any way regret my marriage or my child.
As for my engagement with the "thinking housewife",I engaged her because I'd never read where she just came out and SAID that she was against "mixing of the races." Which, as my astute commenter Lisa pointed out, isn't technically correct, because the Bible clearly states we are all ONE BLOOD.
On her blog she alluded to it several times- but she would never just say it. So in that regard, she was right. I had "tarnished her reputatiion" and called her bigot without concrete proof. I needed to hear it from the horse's mouth. Now that I have, I am completely comfortable that my earlier ssupicions were confirmed and that I was write to distance myself from this blog and its author.
Persuaded,
I am leaving your comment up because I agree with it. As I said, I am one of those folk who doesn't do well with subtleties. I needed what the courts call "evidence beyond a reasonable doubt." Before all I has was a "preponderance of the evidence", lol.
There were many things in our exchange that angered me, but I was well aware that I was dealing with a person who has very ingrained ideas about this subject. I have actually heard these arguments before, and I still think they are deeply flawed, biblically as well as logically, but I do not think being rude or uncivil was the way to go. God would not be glorified in that.
Besides, we black folk have done enough to destroy the confidence of whites and I didn't want to add to the problem, lol. That was sarcasm, y'all. Don't stone me.
Let me address one more thing concerningmy exchange with the thinking housewife. About the very brief and curt exchange when she mentioned the president and I agreed:
I don't think the President is anti-black. When I said that I agreed with Lauara I meant that I am not an Obama supporter either. People have a tendency to beleieve that all black people are Obama supporters. Sometimes I feel the need to get the truth about that on the record. Even some folk who know me and should know better thought I would be an Obama supporter- as if I would be so excited to have a black president that I wouldn't care WHO that president was. I do think many liberal POLICIES are detrimental to the black community, but that's a subject for another day.
Since I was confronted privately about that little tidbit, I figured I'd address it and move on.
Oh, speaking of President Obama, I was heartened to hear him, at the memorial ceremony at Ft. Hood, say that "no religion justifies this" and that the shooter "will be punished in this life and the next."
That gave me hope. He was angry, and not being politically correct. I just felt better about him after that. I feel some hope for him as our president now, and can pray for him with some faith. Before, I could'nt feel faith for him when I prayed for him (faith is the substance of things hoped for -- no hope, no faith), where not I can feel a little hope for him, and therefore a little faith to pray with.
There's hope. Let's pray for President Obama. He is really getting an education, as all new presidents do -- it's inevitable.
I think he saw that even though he apologized for American to all those other heads of state, they haven't "forgiven", and I saw footage where they wouldn't shake his hand at a foreign state event (it was awful -- after about the 4th person, President Obama stopped trying). So, I think, like all new presidents, he's starting to see things for the way they are.
I meant "now" I can feel some hope for him, not "not". Typo.
Well all I can say is I am glad someone has the time and inclination to engage people like The Thinking Housewife, all I can offer her is prayer. I simply can not waste my time nor allow myself to be tempted to say something I should not. You my dear sister Terry, have more restraint then me.
Let us all pray the Lord will lead The Thinking Housewife to the Truth!
New here, found this by stumbling,
I have a perspective that is probably going to be very different from most here, but one that cannot be dismissed, because there are some ethics here, that need to be addressed, and we DO have this thing, in this country, white privilege and American 'Exceptionalism' that yes, does play a huge role in overseas adoption-esp interracial that Has brought about numerous ethical problems, and has given American women, a really bad image.
1. just for starters, there is now and has been, this exploitation in adoption, in countries such as India, where women's wombs because they are brown skinned and deemed 'less than' and because they are poor, and these women are surrogates who for money to feed their children, will adopt out--its exploiting their 'misery' and I believe, its just dead wrong. Its no different than the black market organ sales, that is also dependent upon exploitation of women of color. And we can parade 'selfish interests' in the whole thing of love, but I do think, that because of the prevalence of this exploitation, this Entitlement that yes, white women have in America that they are entitled to children no matter who is exploited, does need to be addressed, and you see this exploitation a lot in interracial adoptions. Meanwhile, we have a foster system in this country, with older children, who have been literally rotting away waiting for homes and love--that to me, Says something, about priorities, about the Real 'motive' of loving a child, and well, I think it needs to be seriously addressed. And its controversial, but so be it...
2. Secondly, I have a daughter who is, yes, multi-racial. Her father was full blood Native American. She is very dark skinned. I have, with the best of my ability, raised her to KNOW her Native American beliefs, culture, that yes, are contrary to the Christian beliefs, but cultural genocide is something I don't concur with, practices that are oppressive, yes, I'll contest, but the entire culture, no, BUT,
even with that--its been Very painful for her. THERE are problems, that yes, do arise and they aren't easy to just swipe under the carpet. And they are extremely painful for the children. Racism, is one, being 'different' in the family, is something that while they may not talk about it, it Can and Does, create conflict--feeling singled out, even if not treated differently,
and its because of what is around them in Society. Its a Daily Battle, and its one thing, to say, oh we can love and all will be well,
its another, to see your child, in pain, from being pulled into two, between two cultures, Especially, when one of those cultures, has been the Oppressor culture [white].
I am out of room to write more here, but, I would suggest this,
ask, interracial adults, and read, from THEIR LENS,
not from, what one 'wants'. And really listen...and yes, be prepared, to swallow, some of the bitter pills, esp when you really come to terms, with the issues of privilege, because if you Do adopt interracial children, it Will come up. A lot.
Jane
I browsed through some of the other blog on this, and having been experienced in working in feminism [and leftism] I know those studies and arguments too, I concur on many points, but not all,
I wish I had time to really go into this, because the issue is way more complex, but I do want to say, a lot of what the Thinking Housewife says, sorry to say it,
but she's right. You see we don't see it from the lens of mothers from those countries, we see it from the lens of privilege and entitlement [yea, I know that may be offensive but it is true and the reason its offensive is because unless you've sat on that seat of the 'other' and really Experienced through their lens, you just don't really know].
I think, where a lot of the 'anger' is at, or stems from, is that [generally speaking] there is that oh we want to adopt and rescue these children,
What about those mothers though, and those girls, who still are IN those impoverished lands and yet, we vote for men and policies that KEEP THEM in bondage, poverty, forced pregnancies, etc., Then we come over there, to 'save them by taking their children',
That is how They see it and yes, it is a type of hypocrisy. And then we submerge these children into usually, an all white 'yuppie' culture [because it takes MONEY to adopt these children],
and then, those children grown up, having knowledge and questions of their heritage, culture, economics, etc., among a culture that is privileged and white---and you think they don't Question,
Wrong. IT causes a lot of inner tension and guilt, its like a type of bi-polar, they may not 'voice it' but its there, [and I've seen this with my own daughter] and when it really will come up,
is when they hit their teens and they become aware more and more, of the HISTORY of relations between the cultures.
And I won't even Go into the continual racism and caste system, that still goes on here, but don't think, Those children won't notice, they surely will,
and while yes, they may love you and appreciate you, don't be shocked, when one day, they call you, 'whitie' or throw it in your face--and you feel rejected, as a mother, because yes, you are white.
Because when they find out--the TRUTH, about foreign policy, history, etc., that Anger will be there...kid your self not, and you can't just wipe it away with the 'oh there is no race'
uh, Yes, there IS race, and you can thank the white people for that, We conconstructed it. For our 'benefit' mind you, and while we may not have slavery in this country, we do Benefit, from Global Slavery, a.k.a., sweatshops, plundering other lands, policies that pay to keep people of color in other countries oppressed and poor and raped and you name it, all for our 'consumer goods'. Ugly fact, folks.
You cell phones, the minerals used for those, are mined in Congo--women are raped daily--in wars, over those lands. Think about it, and then, think, if you adopt a child from the Congo,
that issue won't come up one day. So, what to do, do we just end all adoptions? Tough question,
I think, the breaching the bridge so to speak, is one, education. Diversity, I believe is necessary for Any interracial child, and I would Strongly suggest, for any family who has adopted an interracial child, to move and live in a diverse community, because its in the diversity that the child will learn more self-acceptance of All cultures, and come to peace with who they are and the family they live in. [and be prepared for the conflicts that will arise among their peers, that is actually one of the biggest, they are always being split in two, that is why, living in an all white community, NOT good, or a community that is half and half, NOT good either, because they will always, be forced to choose 'sides' among peers. [I know this also from my daughter--whom is now, engaged to a Native American Man...she simply could not find 'peace' really among her white friends, who yes, though they claim they aren't racist, are yes, racist. That should tell you something]
[cont below] Jane
It Does cause identity issues, and I think, how I handled it, was really, swallowing my 'white' pride, those 'defenses' and learning, to see THROUGH THEIR EYES, and yes, while I may not have been the one who butchered the Indians on the Trail of Tears, my ancestors, sure the hell did, and not only that, our nation, is Still, exploiting and yes, even butchering NAI. [NAI women are still being raped and murdered with impunity in many northern states and in AZ].
And I think, a good question too, is Why aren't we doing more, again, for the 'children who have been abandoned in THIS country' as well as, doing more, to EMPOWER women over seas, so that, they aren't having to 'give up their children', Rather than,
supporting policies and economics [for our cheap goods] that are the fuel that keeps and causes the poverty in those nations and the exploitation in the first place,
and if we Are NOT willing to change our consumption behaviors, our attitudes, to Help those women AND children,
then, that I think--says more, about our motives, our Real beliefs and attitudes about God and Love, and yes,
Race.
Jane
I posted a couple of responses to this, this btw, is one issue that I have written on, numerous times/and researched],
on interracial adoption and God, God's love,
I will close with this,
why, just 'adopt', Why not, instead, Go to those countries as Missionaries and Relief work, and be a 'mother' to Both the women, and children?
Yes, it would mean, giving up comfort, privilege, it would mean sacrifice--but if the 'goal' is to really 'rescue' children from poverty [or the guise to justify interracial adoptions over seas] then why not go all the way? Isn't that, what Christ commissioned us to do?
Read Amy Carmichael, a woman, who was a MOTHER to hundreds of girls, Indian girls [Asia] who she saved from temple prostitution---
In Asia [the focus of the intro to the Thinking Housewife Blog] the astronomical poverty of girls [and sexual trafficking--where the work is Really needed, if you really want to 'save' children], the need is SO great,
for missions and yes, Mothers.
And if not missions, then why not get involved with Fair Trade [want to help children, you can start there] or with micro-businesses for Women, so that they CAN SUPPORT THEIR CHILDREN.
You see---there is way more, to the issue of interracial adoption, that yes, has a lot to do, with why many, are today, opposed to it. I guess, how one should look at it, is how do They see it, from where They sit? They sit in poverty, horrible subjugation, oppression [knowing the power hegemony of yes, US policy and corporations that feed their policy and systems] and then, a nice, well to do, American 'white' woman, walks away with her child [or if from orphanage, don't think, those mothers in those villages, don't see and know].
How do you think, They see it? Do you think, they love less than we do, that they just walk away relieved? What if YOU were the mother, the woman, the daughter, the sister?
We can talk alot about oh there shouldn't be race and God loves everyone,
but what we Really should be doing, is asking the HARD QUESTIONS, do we really Show it, or do we, use the mask of God, to cover up and justify, privilege, entitlement and well, what We want? Meanwhile,
they suffer with no hope, losing their children, over in those countries---its not easy to swallow these bitter truths, but if we Truly LOVE with God's LOVE like we say we do,
then swallow them, we must. Its the only way--we can truly bring about change, [or be that light] to All those children, and yes, THOSE MOTHERS, who have as much value--and who need our love, just as much, as those children do.
Jane
Jane, you raised some interesting points, some very good and worth exploring. But before I do that, I want to give a bit of history as to how this all unfolded and maybe you can see a bit more clearly my position.
I was referred to TTH by a reader who knew I would appreciate her views on feminism and the destruction it has caused many segments of society. I read the post in question and agreed wholeheartedly, so I linked.
Not long afterward I received a comment from a reader asking if I had really taken the time to explore TTH because she was pretty sure I would vehemently disagree with her views on "interracial" marriage. I had not seen anything like that and wasn't inclined to go looking. So the reader sent me the link to the article in question.
TTH uses a unique format in that often what is posted isn't her own words, but comments from readers, with her responses interspersed and it is very easy, if you're not paying close attention, to think she said soemthing that she didn't. So again, I let it go.
While browsing, I came across the post on transracial adoption and an obscure bit of phrasing at the end caught my attention, and I figure I should pay closer attention as i have many readers (none of whom are rich, btw), who have transracially adopted and I didn't want to give the impression that I subscribed to this line of thinking...(To be continued)
Now in reality what we have here is three different subjects that we have mistakenly rolled into one and it has clouded the issue.
First, I actually agree with TTH wholeheartedly that this trend of Hollywood starlets traipsing across the globe to snatch up black/asian babies smacks of racism. She is right. There is an heir of elitism that allows many people to do things that folks in other socieities would never do.
But that is not the same as a Christian couple prayerfully concluding that they want to give a home to a child who needs one.
And certainly, given the widespread disdain for girl babies that is characteristic of much of the Chinese culture (so I've read, but am open to correction), to imply that every white couple who, chooses to adopt these girls is doing something wrong is going too far. In many cases, is it really a matter of the family not being able to afford the child? If so, why are not more Chinese boys being adopted and brought back to America? This is about more than just rich Americans wielding their money and power to get what they want.
And yes, I also agree with TTH that if many of these women would have married and borne children when biology dictated, there would be far fewer of these type adoptions. But there would also be more of these babies languishing in orphanages...(to be continued)
As for your question: Why stop at adoption? I can only speak for my family here, but I would bet you most believing families give a good amount of their money to support missions and missionary work overseas. Not ALL of us are called to travel and do the work. But we support those who do. And many of us do work here at home. There is much to be done here as well.
Let me add that TTH only raised issues of elitism and possible racist overtones as our conversation unfolded. Her original point, as I understood it, was that children of mixed heritage suffer identity crises and that this is something that should not be.
And interracial marriage is a different matter, but given that in America, the issue of culture is a non issue, and her Biblical points totally ignored all the New Testament references to the walls of separation between people being torn down in Christ, I am still convinced that she is flat wrong. Even her Old Testament evidence left much to be desired because there is no evidence that God made "races" as it were.
You are 100% right, Jane that people made up races for their own benefit. How dare we pretend that this foolishness was GOD'S doing?
Did you know that Moses, the only man in recorded Scritpure besides the Messiah to speak with God face to face, was interracially married? He was married to an Ethioian woman, and when his sister Miriam had the audacity to be critical about it, God struck her with leprosy.
To me, that says it all.
Jane Doe Threads brings up some interesting points, but I don't think completely chucking international adoption is the key. There are a lot of reasons why people adopt internationally, and why they adopt here. Ex., my friend has 4 children. Getting a baby locally isn't a choice. They say her house hold is full. As an adopted child herself married to a man with a heart to adopt, they want to take an orphan into their family and Ethiopia will most likely let them adopt.
It sounds great if we all became Amy C.'s, but my husband, for one, isn't feeling the calling. I'm sure that there are many other families out there who are not ready for such radical steps (I accept a criticism of our faith on that account), but are willing to open their homes to one child at a time.
I want to point to Terry's blog title: Breathing Grace. I've studied a considerable amount of history and have spent the last few years becoming more aware of many of the issues brought up by Jane Doe. I am convicted, I am trying to adjust my life and habits accordingly. But it is overwhelming how many layers of filth there are out there. How much propaganda to sort through. And then you have the daily minutia to deal with (home making, homeschooling, general wivery). We all need grace. Even those of us who have been part of the oppression and who are trying to do as Zacheus did: live in true freedom, cease oppression, make restitution.
Can't we support said ministries and reject the companies that are particularly oppressive? Can't we educate ourselves on the injustices, use our money, prayers, powers of political persuasion, etc. to fight the injustice, AND take those languishing in orphanages into our home? Overthrowing the problems in these societies that Jane Doe mentions will take time, what happens to those perishing from lack of love (I know that there are babies and foster kids to take in here, but am addressing the international adoption issue)?
Furthermore, I'm not sure we should put too many eggs in the education basket. There are a lot of promises made in the name of Education. Then you have a bunch of poor, impoverished kids who can read and figure and a society that is still overwhelmingly impoverished and brutal. Jesus said there would be poor with us always. We are to love, serve, lift up...but we can't expect to eradicate all evil, disease, and poverty on this earth. We must strive to be faithful. Otherwise we will be overwhelmed by all the suffering that remains while Satan is prince of this world. Our hope is in the world to come. We are just pilgrims passing through.
If I may piggyback on Joanna's comment about adopting local children:
I once had a neighbor across the street who took in two foster children. They were sisters. Those children stayed with her for 4 years, and she was never allowed to adopt them because the state's first priority was helping the mother get her act together so that she could regain custody. That is always the state's top priority when the parents aren't incarcerated. It takes YEARS to terminate parental rights (and NO, I'm not saying it should be easy to do in all cases), and many people would rather spend the thousands of dollars adopting overseas rather than take the chance of bonding with a child while praying that there isn't a fateful knock at the door...
And yes, our consumerist society (of which I am guilty of participating, even with our tight budget) is part of the problem, but the bigger problem is and has always been human nature. There will always be greedy, power-hungry people who take advantage of weaker vessels for their own ends. And they are not simply concentrated on Wall St. They are in Washington as well. And the majority of human beings are too consumed with meeting their own needs of the day than to worry about how their choices affect the world at large.
I heard a guy call us the United States of Entertainment. I think this was an apt description of our culture.
So, you got a cure for human nature?
Terry if I may step in here a bit. It does not always take years to adopt locally from the foster care system. I was never a foster parent for my daughter but we did adopt her at five months of age and she was previously in a foster home awaiting an adoptive home.
Upon being placed with us one parent did raise objection and fight us for custody. Within four months time we had won custody because the state did not feel this parent would be as suitable as we would.
I think it really depends on the state and therefore I would advise any family looking to adopt to try domestic adoption first. If you find your state's laws aren't condusive than look into international. We have since moved to a state that we found to be much less cooperative than the state from which we adopted our daughter. This has prompted us to investigate international adoption.
Hey Terry!
I just wanted to support you here...I don't remember you calling her a bigot or racist...I remember you saying that you don't agree with everything she says (I read her occasionally as well but am not familiar with any of her posts regarding race as I only found her through Lady Lydia's site a little while ago).
Anyhoo, I thought you did a really good job the way you handled this. I am in agreement with you in your stand on what the Bible teaches, it is very clear..we are all one blood...descended from Noah..who's lineage is shown to be from Adam (this is why when people get upset about all the "begets" in the Bible..they don't realize how important they are).
As for whether it is hard for children of a mixed race (as mine are considered) or for someone of one race adopted by parents of another race...this is not important. Sorry, it is not.
It is "hard" for fat kids, hard for kids with disabilities, hard for kids who speak a different language and have to learn a new one, hard for kids to be raised in dysfunction.....we don't stop having any of these types of kids and it is no one's right or job to decide what is too hard for someone to handle.
As for the very sad story related about a young man who took his life, as a daughter and granddaughter of men who took their lives I can tell you emphatically that the issue was not the ETHNIC MAKE UP OF THE KID!
Being an uninvolved, unloving Father is not determined by race, nor limited to a single race. It is not more prevalent in mixed race families.
By the way, it is much harder to assimilate a DIFFERENT CULTURE...than a different race..take it from me :)
Also, let me second that ANY ONE who takes in ANY child that is not theres is a wonderful angel of God as far as I am concerned. ANYTHING is better than growing up parentless and perhapse we should ask ADOPTED CHILDREN as adults whether they prefer to rot in an orphanage..but be immersed in their culture...or be loved and raised by their own parents?
With you Sister!
Many Blessings :)
Ace
Ace,
Bless you sister!! I agree I really do not believe children are better off just because they are with their own culture or race. I do think children from other countries who are adopted into loving Christian homes are better off. I understand all of the fact about international adoptions and some of the adoptions by movie stars do bother me but when Christians are adopting a child who would be brought up in an environment hostile to Christianity I rejoice!
"Overthrowing the problems in these societies that Jane Doe mentions will take time, what happens to those perishing from lack of love (I know that there are babies and foster kids to take in here, but am addressing the international adoption issue)?"
and the 'human nature' problem
You know, those arguments have been used to support the status quo for So long, that its not even funny, its a nice mask,
but it don't wash. sorry.
Yes, the poor will always be with us, Yes there will be oppression and slavery, Yes there will be misogyny, until Jesus reigns,
the Question is though, is What part, do we Play in that? Do we contribute to it, or do we oppose it?
IF, IF many in our history had used that argument, Hitler would have won, there would still be slavery in THIS country [well, there still is, its called trafficked nannies, many whom are raped, sweatshop workers and yes, sex slaves, all over this nation and in your back yard, women and girls mostly from, Asia, Mexico, South America, and Middle East. FACT], there would Still be forced child labor,
if all those people would have, weeeellll you know, its just human nature and well the poor will always be with us.
Many of the arguments that 'gloss' over the Realities, are just the typical 'glossing over' the real issues, IN the meantime,
we have thousands of children, UNWANTED children who yes, Could be adopted, WHO ALREADY HAVE PARENTS RIGHTS TERMINATED, who are languishing in homes, we have Thousands of children on streets and gangs who, though they may not be adopted, NEED PARENTAL ROLE MODELS, and yes, we have, thousands of teens, TEEN WOMEN, in THIS NATION, who are, working as prostitutes, who are sexually abused WITH IMPUNITY MIND YOU IN OUR PATRIARCHAL CHURCHES, who are filling up welfare lines in the poorest of states,
and lets not forget the Homeless children--who are living in tent cities all over this nation.
Human Nature, you betcha, as long as 'we get what is mine', right?
I don't like children languishing in homes overseas either, BUT LETS DO SOMETHING, ABOUT THE CHILDREN LANGUISHING HERE, FIRST--before USING that as an 'reason'. Because what this issue is really about, is people believing that they want a child, its easier because like one said, maybe the courts will overturn [well welcome to the risk of love and persecution for doing what is right] and about SELF-PROTECTION more than about the interests of children.
And it ain't just 'white Hollywood folks' who are doing the adoptions and exploitations, its white professionals all over this nation, many whom are doing it black market, and exploiting, some of the most poorest and oppressed women in our world. Because
they can. Because its being done to women of color, the invisible, the weak and because, people will just say, well, that is just the way it is....I say,
NO, I say, way it is or human nature, so what. Lets stop contributing to 'privilege' and to 'geo-political Racism', and do more, than just send money, while we live and support the infrastructure of oppression.
Jane
And, as for the problems taking time,
its 2009 for crying out loud, How much time does it take, for a nation, that is one of the wealthiest nations on Earth, who still do this day, won't pay reparations to the Japanese comfort women [girls forced to serve as sex slaves to not only the Japanese but our good ole boys], reparations to the African American who, btw, BUILT a lot of the wealth in this nation [fact], and hell, WE don't even fight, for the Latinos in this nation, who work [American citizens as well as immigrants] in squalor in THIS NATION who farm our food [never mind that 80% of food is grown/farmed by the poorest of the world, WOMEN, women of color mostly] and we won't support them [generally speaking] when they fight for decent wages, So they can feed their children and give them drinking water and so forth,
I mean, Come on. Its time for Christians in This nation, to take the privilege Blinders off, seriously...we have a history of Supporting policies FOR YEARS, under the Right wing Christian agenda that has supported Thugs in South America who have been the torturers and terrorists who have kept women, families impoverished and have caused THOUSANDS, AND I DO MEAN THOUSANDS OF CHILDREN, AS YOUNG AS THREE, GIVING SEX SERVICES TO AMERICAN AND EUROPEAN 'WHITE' BUSINESS MEN, even ON OUR BORDERS,
and its about 'it takes time'????? HOW much time? We can protest abortion and birth control, because its all about the babies, I've YET, TO SEE ONE, ONE, CHRISTIAN PROTEST, IN THIS NATION, ON BEHALF OF CHILDREN WHO ARE SEX SLAVES, including in sweatshops in THIS nation, because of forced pregnancies, or Protesting policies under the NAME OF GOD, mind you, that terrorize people, all over this world, people of color, CHILDREN, by the worst forms of police state terror,
like, in Argentina, under Reagan, the police, putting rats in six year old girls vaginas till the rat chews them up on the inside, to Keep their parents, from protesting for WAGES that they can LIVE on, rather than watching their children, starve to DEATH.
And its about Time?
2009 folks, How much Time, before we ACT, so wow, we give a little money, wow,
as long as we can shop, Willingly not seeing or looking at HOW our goods are made [blood goods, from electronics, lead poisoning all over Asia, diamonds, minerals, chocolate, clothes, organs [oh yea], you name it...GEO POLITICAL RACISM, but oh, we're to feel better because we adopt a few children? Sorry, it just don't wash with me,NO, we can't change the world,
but lets please, stop using the same ole 'privilege' excuses, to NOT do anything. As far as I'm concerned, they are equivalent, to the same excuses, that the slave owners used, back in that day and the supporters of Jim Crow laws, hey, that was human nature too. Since when, were we told, to concur with Human Nature? Shouldn't we be, more like, Christ's nature? I can tell you this much, I believe, that America is like that temple, and if Jesus were to come today, He'd be overthrowing some money tables, in a huge way. And I for one, am tired, of the willful apathy and indifference, throwing the 'pittance' of tithe, yet the refusal, to really take a hard look, at American privilege, and at WHOSE EXPENSE.
AND YES, other nations do the same, but there is ONE huge difference there, WE, the People, are under a Nation, under God, so all we do, policy and other wise, is under the name of God, and I think, we've profaned His name, enough. And adopting a few children, ain't going to 'undo' the harms, done, to MILLIONS. Including, in our very own, backyard.
Jane
Jane, I am wondering where on earth you get your information. As a mom who has three children of my own and is considering international adoption and researching it, and have friends who did it, I find your information to be very faulty.
It is very risky to adopt a child in the USA. You can adopt a child and have them for years and then have the parents decide that they want the child back, and the courts give the child back to the birth parents. A friend of mine knows people who had this happen to them.
My friend who adopted did so from China, and got a disabled child from an orphanage. A child that the birth parents had willing dumped there because of the "one child" policy, they decided they wanted a perfect child.
Mrs Terry, I hope you are being careful, because as I recall, an anonymous someone once spoke to you about my beliefs on interracial marriage. It appears than an anonymous someone wants to make trouble for anyone that believes different to them.
However, I'm sure you'll be glad to know that my husband and I have been totally rethinking our position on interracial marriage. We aren't "there" yet, but if we keep following the logic we are thinking through, I think we are going to get there.
There was a family in my old church that took in foster kids after their biological ones were raised. Last time I saw them, they had adopted 5 children, including two boys we referred to as "the twins" one african-american and one latino. They were really a beautiful family. I have also known families who have done international adoptions, and while not without problems of their own, it is good too.
Mrs. W, I believe the laws on adoption vary from state to state, but most allow a period of a few months to a year for the biological parents to change their mind. Perhaps there were some odd circumstances in the case of your friend?
Jane Doe, I don't know if you read what I said, but I said we should fight these things. But adopting internationally isn't always or usually evil. At least, not as I see it. I fully support adopting locally, mentoring, etc.
I would love to take on the world's evils that you speak of. I would like to take in foster kids and orphans (I don't have a home of my own, but it is a heart's desire for the future). I am overwhelmed by all of it. What do you do to take on effectively every one of the issues you mention? My heart does break about the sex trafficking. What can I do besides pray, send money, write letters as a mother of three under 5 years with a husband who is not interested in quiting his job and taking these things on full time? Do you meet with international corporations about the water privatization? Fly country to country to ensure fair trade and expose sweat shops?
What are you expecting of us? I want to help, but I am overwhelmed with all you are trying to hold us personally responsible for.
I choose to take steps to change my consumerist habits so that my changes will last for a lifetime. I have been educating myself on every issue you have written about but I am not some frontier woman who knows how to make everything by myself from scratch this minute and take on the all evils of the world in every continent. Could you please offer some actual points of practical action instead of launching such strong verbal attacks.
Nurse Bee, as far as I know there were no exceptional circumstances. Birth parents wanted the boy back after several years, he did not want to go back and made that clear, but the courts sent him back anyway.
That's an interesting circumstance, Mrs. W.
My younger for brothers were adopted, and here in Texas, once a birth mother signs away her rights to the child, and if the birth father doesn't come forward to claim his child in 30 days, their rights are taken away for good. After a period of six months, the adoption is finalized -period. No "backsies." Perhaps the birth parents in your story never signed away their rights? I wonder what state they were in.
Mrs. Terry, thank you for your example of graciousness and level-headedness during the discussion with The Thinking Housewife. Transracial adoption and so-called interracial marriage are such emotional issues (for good reason), and I think you handled yourself with admirable dignity.
Jasmine
Yes I would like to know what all else happened with that adoption also. But I know several people who have adopted from overseas because it is too risky here. Sad. I'm glad they got the children they did, but I just think it's awful that it's so risky here.
"Could you please offer some actual points of practical action instead of launching such strong verbal attacks."
Already ahead of you on this one...because I came here this morning to do just that.
See my blog, photos also from gallery, just one that I have referred to in research, on many of the issues that I have advocated on, and read the article, you will have a bit more understanding of why I wrote what I did.
I do hope, while I was not intending to verbally 'attack anyone' personally, I was however, strongly challenging 'beliefs' that I do feel, play a huge role in the perpetuating of the oppression of others, for Biblical references, I suggest, read the book of Amos.
here is the blog--there are some links to the side, of how to get involved, as well as a blog I added, in the post, on how to be more consumption conscious, based on one woman's brave decision to 'not consume' for a year, and how it changed her family's life and views.
http://homesewersneedleworkersunion-hsnwu.blogspot.com/
on the consumption blog, see
http://consumption-rebellion.blogspot.com/
BTW I will be transferring to the blog, a lot of the research I have done on adoptions, the status of women and poverty in many of the nations where interracial adoptions take place, and other means in helping these women, so that they aren't coerced or forced to 'adopt' out their children. There is also on another blog I used to write on frequently [it was more about opposing the oppression of women in Islamic countries], about adoptions here in this country,
there is a group of women who have come forward, impoverished women, telling their stories of how they were literally 'coerced' and 'intimidated' into giving up their babies, and the long term harmful effects it has had on them, and I also have other links to several good organizations that work with impoverished street children in this nation, and who advocate for children who are in foster care.
There was one organization where you could adopt women, in countries such as the Congo, however I have not had success in getting any kind of confirmation from them, I have been looking into those NGOs, there were several 'coops' in this nation, however, thanks to some of the laws that were passed Before Obama [I supported neither candidates], many of these coops that were women helping other women, fair trade, etc., have been forced to shut down, leaving many of the micro-level means of assisting women OUT of poverty, both here and overseas, without any recourse, many btw, have been forced to go back into prostitution, etc. I haven't updated those researches in a while, but I will be working on those....since the global food crisis, much has changed in regards to the NGOs that are women centered and women operated,
we can thank, the patriarchs and women haters, across the globe, for that one. Sadly to say, many of them, political right wing fundies, from Christianity to Islam. Women and children, of course, are the ones paying the price, in their bodies...and lives.
Peace, solidarity in Christ Jesus,
[see above post for how to get involved, etc]
Jane
"Do you meet with international corporations about the water privatization? Fly country to country to ensure fair trade and expose sweat shops?"
[see above two posts, link to blog that I have posted links to various org working on many of these issues]
On the sweatshops, Yes, I have. In fact, I went to a conference, that is offered once a year, regarding working to change businesses and academics, create awareness, encourage fair trade and so forth. During that time, I also had the privilege of taking part in phone conference With the leader of the Chinese Women's Labor Union in China, who was at the WTO, protesting the policies [that our gov supported] that not only fuels and benefits from the SLAVERY [and it is slavery, concentration camp levels, no kidding] in China, but through out the world [and in fact I've personally met women and men who have had the sad fate of working in these labor slavery camps], not only that, the trafficking of North Korean women, many of whom are Christian, into China,
to work both as garment slaves and as sex slaves, while the woman could not give out too much info [dangerous] they were aware, and the problem is there, is that they now traffick women, Christian women and girls from these countries into other countries because of the language differences, they cannot 'seek help', and they are kept in basements and camps, without any hope of escape, in Europe, in China, through out the world.
And our fashion industry, is in fact, exploiting now girls in parts of North Africa [the new market for slaves] for piece meal embroidery work. They pay them cents for work that takes hours, promising these girls a life of freedom from economic dependence,
however, these girls are simply just slaved and many of them, thanks to patriarchal beliefs, their money is taken from them from husbands, 'king pens' to be more exact.
As for water, that is another issue that yes, I have advocated on, in fact, we have water issues here in America, for example, diversion of water for high end motels in one state from rural farming areas in another. Bolivia in fact, had a revolution outbreak, when the government charged for water use, of course, charging the poorest of the poor.
The crisis in the Middle East, has a lot to do about the diversion of water, leaving the poor, without water, for the rich, in Israel [and I do support Israel, however there are policies that are very exploitative to the poor in that region]. As for corporations,
they don't care. And thanks to the attitudes of many in the West, they really don't have to care, because that is where, yes, geo-political racism comes in to play, its ONLY when the pocket books are effected here, that people begin to scream [and ironically, all those submission scriptures, don't then apply, LOL, that's another issue].
There IS a lot of empathy for the children, especially among Christian NGOs, etc., What I have found though, is that, there is little to none, except for a few 'token' excerpts, focus on the welfare of women in these same countries--because women are deemed as 'property' of the males, therefore, they are diminished or their oppression trivialized, I believe because if those issues were truly confronted, it would demand changes among many Christian mega-power hegemonies that are yes, patriarchal, here in This country, it would upset the nest so to speak. It would surely challenge the male entitlement power. And many simply don't want that--while fighting to control the womb is of course, acceptable [and I am pro-life], fighting against violence against women and subjugation on horrid levels, that ISN'T popular, because well, gee, I guess then, there would be some serious 'challenges' to traditions that we've clearly held onto in this nation.
I do concur with you however, I believe the change needs to be in the micro--and it sounds like you are doing just that. [You are a minority though, not many do take these issues at heart].
Jane
I would just like to concur with Mrs W. Although I am not familiar with the particular situation that she was referencing, I can think of several similar situations myself.
The regulations regarding surrender are in some states somewhat ambiguous... they may seem perfectly clear and straightforward, but in fact there are various loopholes and "extenuating circumstances" that a clever lawyer can exploit. Birthparents can, in some instances and in some states, come back years later and declare that their rights have been violated, that they were under duress or were coerced to surrender their child. Often just the threat of a long drawn out legal proceeding is enough to make adoptive parents give way, sometimes because they can't afford the battle either emotionally or financially. Most often I believe they do it to spare the child further upheaval and trauma.
It's a scary situation to find oneself in, as I know from personal experience. My youngest child's adoption was not finalized until he was over three years old, even though he joined our family as a newborn. I won't go into all of the particulars, but suffice it to say that my very cautious lawyer wanted every 'i' dotted and every 't' crossed. We went to extraordinary measures to obtain the ironclad surrender of his birthfather, far more than the court or present laws required. Our lawyer felt this was necessary so that the birthfather could not come back months or years later and declare his rights had been violated. In such a case, the entire case would have to be reopened and custody issues would once again be on the table for complete review and revision. Like I said, scary... and if it were not for the grace and assurance of God, I don't think I could have borne the situation... most of which I went through as a single mother.
I don't blame families who feel that domestic adoption is too "risky" and instead opt for safer international adoptions.
Hello Terry...I love the way both you ladies handle that exchanged.
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